Podcast E5: The Narcissistic Defense
This podcast, hosted by Mette Miriam Sloth, focuses on shedding light on narcissistic defense mechanisms, which we all may have within us, but which in some individuals can be so dominant that they create significant problems in close relationships.
About this AI Deep Dive: This episode features an AI-generated dialogue based 100% on the original teachings of Mette & Sune Sloth. It transforms our core concepts into an engaging conversation for deeper understanding.
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Mette Miriam Sloth emphasizes the difference between having narcissistic defense mechanisms and being a narcissist. We can all experience being triggered and reacting with narcissistic defenses when we feel hurt or threatened. The difference lies in how often and to what extent we are governed by these defenses, and whether we are willing to take responsibility for our actions and work with our patterns.
Signs of Narcissistic Defense
The podcast describes a number of signs of narcissistic defense:
Projection: Blaming others for one's own feelings and actions.
Gaslighting: Denying other people's experiences and manipulating reality.
Silent treatment: Ignoring and punishing the other person by being silent.
Subtle criticism: Belittling and undermining the other person with small, seemingly innocent comments.
Anger and rage outbursts: Reacting violently when confronted with one's patterns.
Lack of accountability: Avoiding taking responsibility for one's actions and their consequences.
Consequences of Narcissistic Defense
The podcast describes the harmful effects that narcissistic defense can have on close relationships, including:
Exhaustion and breakdown: The partner of a person with narcissistic defenses may experience being drained of energy and emotionally broken down.
Lack of intimacy: Narcissistic defense can prevent deep connection and intimacy in the relationship.
Conflicts and power struggles: Narcissists can thrive in conflicts and power struggles, as it gives them a sense of control.
Harm to children: Narcissistic behavior from parents can have serious consequences for children, who can become confused, insecure, and emotionally damaged.
Handling Narcissistic Defense
Mette Miriam Sloth provides advice on how to deal with people with narcissistic defenses:
Setting boundaries: Setting clear boundaries for what behavior you will accept.
Gray rock: Sliding off provocations and avoiding giving the narcissist the attention they seek.
Breaking contact: In some cases, it may be necessary to break off contact completely to protect yourself and your children.
Support for children: Supporting children who are affected by a parent's narcissistic behavior.
Possibility for change: Although it is difficult for people with narcissistic personality disorder to change their behavior, it is possible to work with narcissistic defenses if you are willing to look inward, take responsibility and seek professional help.
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Hey deep divers, we're your AI hosts and we're here to well to guide you through something pretty fascinating today.
Yeah, definitely fascinating.
We uh we were actually asked by Med Miriam Sloth to take a deep dive into her Danish podcast, The Magdalene Effect,
right?
And basically unpack it for a wider English-speaking audience.
So, think of us as like your translators and distillers of wisdom.
Love that.
Um and trust me, this one gets pretty deep.
It does get deep. We're talking about narcissistic defenses today.
Ooh, okay.
And I don't just mean like full-blown narcissistic personality disorder. These are behaviors we all kind of exhibit sometimes, you know.
Yeah.
Especially when we get triggered or, you know, something happens that causes a strong emotional response.
Okay. I'm already intrigued. So, paint a picture for me and for the listeners.
Okay. So, imagine you're in like a heated argument with someone.
Oh, yeah.
And no matter what you do or say, you just can't seem to get through to them.
Been there.
It's like they're twisting your words, denying your reality, and just making you feel wrong.
Yeah. They make you feel like you're the crazy one,
right? Okay.
That's where these narcissistic defenses might be coming into play.
Interesting. So, it's like they're putting on this armor to protect themselves.
Yeah. Psychological armor, shielding themselves from like vulnerability or, you know, emotional pain. And they do that by making the other person's reality wrong.
Oo, that's a good way to put it. Making the other person's reality wrong.
Yeah.
And like, how do that how does it actually manifest? Like, what are some examples of that.
Well, think about it. It can be anything from blaming to deflecting to gaslighting.
Oh, wow.
Even just giving you the silent treatment, you know, stonewalling you. It's all about kind of shifting that responsibility and regaining a sense of control.
Okay. So, I think I'm already starting to feel a little defensive just hearing you talk about this,
right?
Um, so, so just to be clear, we're not saying that anyone who gets defensive is like a narcissist.
No, not at all. We all have these moments, you know,
we all get defensive sometimes, right?
The key difference that Mediriam sloth points out is self-awareness. Okay. So, somebody with strong narcissistic defenses might not even realize they're doing this.
They're just kind of reacting.
Yeah. And they definitely don't understand the impact it's having on other people.
Oh, right. Okay.
They're kind of stuck in this pattern of just projecting all their insecurities and anxieties onto everyone around them.
Gotcha. Okay. So, this is where it gets really interesting. The source material talks about this thing called the empathy trap.
Oh. Oh, the empathy trap.
Yes. And I have a feeling a lot of our listeners are going to relate to this.
I think so, too.
It's basically this idea that people with strong narcissistic defenses often attract highly empathic individuals,
right? They're drawn to them like a magnet.
Yeah. Almost like this magnetic pole.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And it can be a really dangerous dynamic for the empath.
I can see that.
Yeah.
So, the empath being naturally caring and understanding sees the pain beneath these defenses and tries to heal or fix the person.
Exactly. And they pour all their energy and compassion into this relationship,
but often it's met with manipulation and resistance,
right? Because the narcissist just keeps deflecting.
Mhm. They're not taking responsibility. And instead, they might even use the empath's empathy against them.
Oh.
As a way to control them even more. So, the empath ends up feeling drained, depleted, questioning their own sanity.
Yeah. You can feel it just even hearing it described.
It's like you can't pour from an empty cup.
Exactly.
And this empathy It can be so insidious because it starts with good intentions, right?
Oh, absolutely. It starts with care and concern.
Yeah. So, how can we like spot these patterns early on? What are some red flags?
Well, many Mariam Sloth talks about this cycle of rage, blameshifting, then love bombing, and then repeat.
Ooh, that's messy.
It's a roller coaster. It's really confusing and draining for the people on the receiving end.
Okay, so how does this like how do these defenses show up in relationships? What are some like realw world examples?
Well, it can be subtle at first, you know,
okay,
like maybe your partner is constantly criticizing your choices.
Oh, yes.
Making you feel like you can never do anything right. Or they might be projecting their own flaws onto you.
Oo.
Like turning their insecurities into accusations against you.
Wow. That's rough.
Okay. Then you have those moments of extreme anger.
Yeah.
Like outbursts that come out of nowhere. They're constantly walking on eggshells.
Yeah. Afraid to do or say anything,
right? And then after the outburst comes this intense affection.
Oh, like the love bombing.
Exactly. ly. It's like they're trying to make up for what they did.
Yeah. And then it keeps you hooked. It keeps you hoping for that calm and connection.
But the calm never lasts. It's a cycle.
It's a cycle and it's damaging to the relationship.
It is. It erodess the trust. It decreases the intimacy.
So, what happens long term?
Well, both people are affected. It's like a slow poison that seeps into the foundation of the relationship.
Wow. Okay.
Over time, you know, that constant need for control, the anger, the inability to be vulnerable, creates a huge partners
and I imagine it's really bad for kids who grow up in these environments.
Oh, absolutely. It's
Yeah, we'll have to talk about that more later, but I think we're ready for a break.
Yeah, let's take a break and come back and dive even deeper into this.
Okay, sounds good.
You know, before we get back into those strategies, I think it's really important to touch on something Miriam Sloth mentioned about how these defenses can impact children.
Yeah, let's talk about that.
Because it's not always like vert abuse,
right?
It's more of a subtle undermining of the child's sense of self.
Okay. Yeah. So, it's not always those big dramatic outbursts or those really obvious manipulation tactics,
right? It's the little things.
So, what kinds of things are we talking about?
Well, just imagine a kid who's constantly told that their feelings are wrong.
Oh, yeah.
Or that their needs are just an inconvenience.
Wow.
Over time, that can really make them doubt their own perceptions.
Right. Like they don't trust themselves.
Exactly. And they feel like they have to constantly walk on eggshells around their parent.
Oh, so they don't want to rock the boat,
right? And so their emotional development gets kind of stunted, you know?
It's almost like they're forced to conform to the parents needs.
Exactly. And the saddest part is that the kid internalizes all of this.
Oh wow.
They start to believe that they are the problem,
right? Like it's their fault.
Yeah. That they're not good enough.
That's really sad. So is there any hope for these kids? Like how can we help them break free from that cycle?
Well, Mete Miriam Sloth has some great advice about this. She says it's So important to counteract those negative messages with validation and support.
Okay, so basically showing them a different way,
right? You have to let them know that their feelings are valid, their needs matter, and that they are worthy of love and respect.
So kind of like giving them an antidote.
Exactly. An emotional antidote. But then there's also the practical side of things, you know,
right? Like if you're co-parenting with someone like this
Yeah.
How do you handle that?
That's where boundaries come in.
Yeah. Okay.
You have to have really firm boundaries to protect that child from the emotional fallout.
Yeah, that makes sense. But I imagine it's hard to set those boundaries.
It can be, especially when you're dealing with someone who's so manipulative,
right? Because they can be so charming when they want to be.
Exactly. And Meth Miriam Sloth doesn't sugarcoat it. She talks about how you have to be prepared for the push back, the guilt trips, even like smear campaigns.
Wow.
But she's very clear that the child's well-being has to come first.
Okay. So, it's really about protecting that child.
Yes. And Remember, you're not trying to change the narcissist or get into some kind of power struggle.
It's about creating a safe space for the child.
Exactly. A stable environment where they can get their needs met and develop a healthy sense of self.
Okay. This has been so eye opening and I'm starting to see these defenses everywhere now.
I know, right? It's like once you see it, you can't unsee it.
Exactly.
But I do want to circle back to personal healing.
Okay.
Is it really possible for someone to change if they have these deeply ingrained defenses? That's the big question. Yeah. And Medi Miriam Sloth is very honest about how difficult it is. She says it's a long and challenging journey. Okay.
And it requires a lot of self-awareness, courage, and willingness to face some hard truths about yourself.
So, it's not enough to just recognize the patterns, right?
You have to really understand what's driving them.
Exactly. You have to be willing to dig deep and uncover those wounds that are fueling the defenses.
Oh, it's like peeling back the layers.
Mhm. And that means confronting insecurities past past traumas, unhealthy coping mechanisms, all that stuff.
Wow, that's a lot. So, therapy would be crucial, I imagine.
Absolutely. Mente Miriam Sloth strongly recommends finding a therapist who specializes in narcissistic personality disorder.
Okay. So, someone who really gets it.
Exactly. They can help guide the person through that process of self-discovery,
help them learn new ways of coping, and ultimately help them create a more fulfilling and authentic life.
I like that. So, she also mentioned something about energy. work in addition to traditional therapy.
Yes, she's a big believer in that.
What is that exactly and how does that tie into healing?
Well, she suggests that working with the body's energy systems can be incredibly powerful in releasing those emotional blocks.
So, it's kind of like a holistic approach.
Exactly. Mind, body, and spirit.
And ultimately, you're giving yourself the tools and support to confront those deep wounds and break free from those defenses.
This is so powerful and empowering. But where do you even begin?
Well, Met Miam Sloth talks about how the pain of recognizing how you've hurt others can actually be a catalyst for change.
Oh wow.
So it's about moving beyond self-preservation and tapping into empathy and accountability.
Okay. So it's not just about protecting yourself. It's about acknowledging the impact you have on other people, right? It's about taking ownership of your actions and making a conscious choice to do things differently.
I love that. So you shift from being defensive to a place of connection and vulnerability.
Exactly. And that's the real path to feeling.
Wow, we've covered so much today. And I'm excited to hear what other wisdom medium sloth has to offer.
Me, too. There's so much more to explore.
And who knows, maybe this deep dive will inspire some of our listeners to start their own healing journeys.
Yeah, I hope so. But before we get ahead of ourselves, let's recap some key takeaways from this part of our exploration.
Okay, that's a good idea. So, what are the main points we want listeners to remember?
Yeah, for me, I think the biggest thing is just realizing how common these narcissistic es are I mean I think it's easy to think it's just like people with you know a big diagnosis or whatever but really we all do this to some extent.
Oh absolutely and that's why I think this conversation is so important for everybody. Yeah.
You know it's not about labeling people. It's about understanding that we all have these vulnerabilities
and finding better ways to deal with them.
Yeah. And another thing that really stuck with me was the empathy trap.
Oh yeah.
I bet a lot of people listening are like, "Oh my gosh, that's me."
Totally. It's that feeling of being being drawn to someone
who has these defenses.
You think it's a real connection.
Yeah.
But it's actually their neediness.
Yeah. And you just want to fix them.
Exactly. But that can be so dangerous.
It can lead to all kinds of problems.
Yeah. Exhaustion, frustration,
even abuse.
So sometimes the best thing you can do is just step back.
Yep. Protect yourself.
Yeah. And that kind of goes handinhand with setting boundaries.
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
Boundaries are crucial. crucial.
Yeah. For any relationship where these defenses are at play,
right? Whether it's romance, family work,
anywhere,
you got to have those boundaries
and you got to stick to them.
Exactly. Which can be really hard.
Oh, yeah. Especially when you're dealing with someone who's good at manipulating.
They'll push back. They'll guilt trip you.
It's tough. But many Miam sloth really stressed that the child's well-being has to be the priority
always.
And that might mean making some hard choices.
It might
to protect them.
Yeah. Which brings us back to the impact on kids.
Yeah. How these defenses can really affect them.
It's subtle, but it's powerful.
All that criticism, the manipulation.
Yeah. It really messes with their sense of self.
It's so sad to think about these kids feeling like they're not good enough.
It is. But sloth reminds us that there's always hope.
Yeah. There's always a way forward.
By supporting them, validating them, setting those boundaries,
right? Showing them a different way.
We can help them heal and break free.
And that leads to the question of personal healing,
right? Can someone with these defenses actually change
sounds like a tough journey.
It is. Sloth is very honest about that. It takes a lot of self-awareness
which is hard to come by.
Yeah. But for those who are willing to do the work
Yeah.
There's always the possibility of transformation.
It's about more than just wanting to change.
It's about facing those deep wounds.
Exactly. The pain, the insecurity,
and unraveling those patterns,
years of patterns and then rebuilding a healthier sense of self
and therapy. can help with that.
Oh, absolutely. Especially with someone who specializes in this,
they can guide you through the process.
And then there's energy work, too.
Yes. Addressing the issue holistically,
mind, body, spirit.
Finding what works for you.
This has been such a fascinating conversation.
I agree. So insightful.
I feel like I have a whole new understanding of all of this.
Me too. And I hope our listeners do as well.
It's not easy to talk about.
No, but knowledge is power.
Exactly. And when you understand these patterns, You can protect yourself
and create better relationships.
Yeah. And I loved what Sloth said about empathy and accountability being so important for change.
Oh, yeah. That was beautiful.
It's not just about protecting ourselves.
It's about making the world a better place.
Yeah. Taking responsibility for our impact
and choosing to do things differently.
So, on that note of hope
and empowerment,
we want to thank you for joining us
for this deep dive
into the Magdalene effect.
We encourage you to keep exploring this topic.
Find the resources and support you need
and never give up on your healing journey.
Keep diving deep, friends.
You never know what you might discover.
